In the final scene of Mamoru Oshii’s 1995 film Ghost in the Shell, the being that was once known as the Major quotes a verse from the Bible. More specifically, 1 Corinthians 13:11, which in the King James Version reads:
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
This is one of the very last lines of dialogue in the film, and it is a callback to an earlier scene where Batou and Motoko are drinking beer on a boat. In that scene, Project 2501 quotes the first part of the the subsequent verse (1 Corinthians 13:12), which is the perhaps better known line that starts with “For now we see through a glass, darkly”. Which, although a famous phrase in and of itself, is perhaps better translated into modern English as “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror”.
Now, an Oshii film quoting the Bible certainly isn’t unusual and I’m not going to go into any depth of analysis of the film here, but there’s one thing I want to discuss. One of the major themes of Ghost in the Shell is the familiar one of human transcendence; becoming something more than human, and both the first quote and the dialogue the Major has with Togusa about the dangers of overspecialization even earlier in the film can certainly be interpreted as belonging to this theme. There is, however, also a less obvious nuance to this, namely the one of moving on, in the emotional sense. The final scene has Batou and what was once the Major saying their goodbyes, which fits very well with the overall plot and the general transcendent theme.
Thematically, moving on or letting go certainly isn’t uncommon in Japanese story telling. Japan, has, after all – perhaps influenced by the Buddhist concept of impermanence – basically turned feelings of nostalgia into an art form in and of itself.
With this in mind, it may or may not be surprising that anime fans are really, really bad at moving on. Granted, I’ve seen the same phenomenon in other pop culture as well, but anime fans are particularly persistent. Basically, the actual point of this blog post (which I’m actually starting to get to now) is the question of why people have such a hard time letting go of the hobbies and the stories of their youth.
Coming back to 1 Cor. 13:11, the message is unambigous. When I became a man, I put away childish things. Ten years ago, in the summer of 2004, when I was 17 years old, I got into warezing anime. Today, I’m writing what will be the last post on this blog and I’m ready to move on with my life. The friendships I’ve made during these ten years are in some cases still important to me, but I really cannot say anime or fansubbing has made a lasting impression on me. After finishing this blog post, I plan on deleting what anime-related stuff might still be sitting around forgotten on my HDD and unfollow the few anime-related people I still follow on Twitter. It is time to move on.
What puzzles me is why so many people choose to stay with the stories of their youth. Hollywood films based on comic books are seemingly very popular. People who once played World of Warcraft are coming back to it. Which Saturday morning cartoons you watched as a kid is apparently still very important to many people. People who got into anime at about the same time as I did (or in many cases many years earlier) are still watching and writing about it, even though in some cases (see: Colony Drop) mostly limited to complaining about how things were just better in the Good Old Days. People cosplay their favorite teen culture franchise as grownups. Why cling so desperately to these teenage years? Is it just nostalgia, or have I missed an important part of the zeitgeist? Is it that the social networks you establish around your hobbies now are stronger than they once were?
I once had some loose plans on writing a full disclosure post about what I accomplished during my years of fansubbing and what it was like ten years ago, but I don’t really care enough to write that now and I’m not sure anyone else cares either. Fansubbing is dead, after all, and I don’t think its history is mine to write.
However, I will leave those of you who are younger than I with a few words of advice that you will surely ignore, as young people are wont to do with advice from their elders: value your friendships, but don’t get caught up in some small corner of the wonders of this world. Fictive stories, while entertaining, are ultimately not all that important. You can move on with your life if you choose to do so.
With these words, I leave this blog as I came to it, with a post about how I don’t really like anime. Closing the circle is thematically important in stories about moving on, after all. Good bye.
Comments (21)
I really wish you’d expand a little bit on your points, because I think you put more thought to it than what you wrote down.
Ultimately, fan studies don’t offer concrete answers. But they aren’t useless either. There was a time I was stuck in a rut with anime, but now I’m not and I still watch them.
A note worthy of mention is that the people you’ve been following who are still around after all these years are anomalies. Most anime fans are fans for 2-3 years, then find something else to waste their time on.
Your old friend Mentar still discusses anime on forums. I find solace in knowing that this too is one way to live your life. I’d hate to completely throw away something that defined me and kept me busy for 10+ years. I’m not sure you really believe it hasn’t left an impression on you.
Fansubbing is dead. That’s a huge hint to what warezing and anime gave to you, considering you’re quitting it now.
Hi Fluff! I was never involved for as long as you but left for similar reasons — I grew up and realised the community wasn’t. Your technical accomplishments are something to be proud of, and a written account of the fansubbing scene from someone within could be an interesting read for all sorts of people.
Good luck with whatever it is you do now.
If you feel that the best way to grow up and move on is to trample on what lies behind you, I only have pity for you.
You can keep a healthy distance (and that is the part I agree with, you shouldn’t get absorbed in the medium) even without throwing everything out of the window. Or in this case your hard drive.
What you should get rid of though is your shitty anime avatar. And delete Shuffle, which is a terrible series.
Thanks for all the funny and interesting posts over the years.
@1 and 3:
Well, yes, I originally planned on writing more but it was getting late and I didn’t think anyone would read it, really. I’m surprised it’s gotten as much attention and feedback as it has.
To expand a bit on the argument mostly hinted at in the post, my intention wasn’t to try to forget about my past or anything like that. I acknowledge that I once liked anime, but the person I was then wasn’t the same as the one I am now. My tastes and opinions tomorrow are not likely to be the same as the ones I hold today, either. I have actively chosen to not be nostalgic about what I liked back then. Some people I know who were once anime fans aren’t really anymore, but they still occasionally watch anime, perhaps out of nostalgia.
I chose not to, because to me it feels important to be able to let go of who I once was. For me, it is important to develop and change as a person. My taste in entertainment is a part of how I’ve changed. That doesn’t mean I have to forget who I once was, though.
Now, I’m not saying that your tastes in entertainment (or any other part of your personality) _have_ to change or you’re a bad person or anything like that, but as I say in the blog post, I think it’s important to be able to move on. Koda and I talked a bit about this post on IRC last night and she mentioned about how a lot of young parents want their kids to experience the same stories as they themselves experienced when they were kids. That, to me, is a kinda weird expression of oddball conservatism, and writing this post was a part of me trying to understand that kind of thing, because I think it’s an important kind of thinking in society today, not just related to pop culture (see f.ex. various “golden age” myths popular in political conservatism etc).
As #1 says, for some people, doing what they always did is probably a comfort. I know I stuck around a lot longer in fansubbing than I otherwise would have (I mostly stopped watching anime long ago) just because I had friends who still did it and because the social context (i.e. being a Respected Encoder or whatever) was kind of important to me. The fact that forming such social bonds around your hobbies and subcultures is very easy today may or may not be important.
Finally, I should note that I have never actually watched Shuffle. IIRC found my avatar as a vector trace on /w/ in… 2006 maybe? and liked the facial expression, and I don’t really care about avatars so I haven’t changed it since.
I found this blog sometime ago by chance, and I found your posts are quite interesting. So sad that you’re going to stop writing.
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In my case, I’ve been watching anime from around 15 years ago. I watched them in my local tv station and I watched more and more from around 7 years ago when the Internet was entering this place.
I’ve watched a lot of anime to the point I can easily predict what the story will become next. I watched ‘normal’ show like Iron Man, Harry Potter, etc too. I can predict their stories as well.
Why I’m still watching anime maybe because of the art. Animation can be more expressive and tell deeper things than ‘normal’ show. Which is why I don’t really like those adapted ‘live action’ shows, few are good but the rest are meh.
I’ve played a lot of games too, I’ve become bored of games but for anime, I haven’t become bored of it so I don’t think I can get liberated from anime.
So long, good bye..
ps: I don’t know your fansub group’s name, or even the fact you were fansubbing at first as I only found your blog by chance. If you don’t mind, can you please tell me the group’s name? I’m just curious ;)
I started out in DigitalPanic, was in Lunar and Ayu for a short while, but most of my career was in Eclipse and gg.
Oh, and I suppose the worst kept secret on Rizon is that I ran the .ts raw group ElitistFags for a short while around 2009.
As one of the great works of the animated medium told us, fun things are fun. That applies to both watching anime and being nostalgic about it. The day may come when I cease to enjoy new anime, in which case I will stop watching it – but I hope the day never comes when I cease to remember it fondly.
We’re (apparently) the same age, and have been watching anime for a similar time, but my advice would be almost the opposite of yours: the small corners of the wonders of the world are everything. Don’t get caught up in trying to change the world, or trying to find something more important; important is overrated, and so perhaps are friendship and romance, as wonderful as they are (indeed one thing I love about e.g. *Honey & Clover* – one way anime has not just left an impression but genuinely changed my life – is that it takes a more balanced view of this).
Perhaps a more Puritan (but I’m getting ahead of myself) view prevails among fansubbers. What little encoding I did was a thankless, unrewarding task that compromised my enjoyment of the shows involved – so I stopped, and did things that were more fun instead. (I sometimes think the whole fansubbing culture was fueled by the dreams of young idealists, burning them out as an integral part of the process). But it’s worth remembering that the reason fansubbing is dead is that fansubbing *won* – (at least nominally) commercial publishers now fill the same gap, making decent English translations available for a huge range of shows very soon after their Japanese airing.
People do care about this little slice of cultural history, just as people still care about punk, or about the first mountain bikers; the history of fansubbing will be written, one way or another (perhaps even by me), and you have more right to write it than most. So I’d urge you to write up that post if you can bring yourself to do so. But of course I most of all have no right to demand that from you; you’ve contributed more than enough to (dare I say it?) the community over the years. Believe it or not, your work *is* appreciated, *is* important to at least some of us.
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The mythology of adulthood is perhaps the last place where a Puritan ethic still holds sway in our culture, this idea that hard work, even suffering is good for its own sake and fun is inherently suspect – it’s no coincidence you’re quoting the Bible. The gradual acceptance that it’s ok for adults to enjoy themselves as youths do is more a return to the norm than a modern peculiarity; an ancient Greek philosopher (or a modern French one) would find the Puritan idea absurd, and of course it *is* absurd – just a repackaging of the Just World Fallacy[1].
And there’s something very adolescent about stopping doing childish things because they’re childish; it seems born of insecurity, of a self-conscious need to prove oneself. I’m reminded of Wellesley burning his violin, or the Elrics burning their house – something that once seemed very badass, but now just seems destructive. Maturity usually means replacing moderation with certainty, a willingness to live and let live (which, in fairness, your comment #5 seems closer to).
I think you will come to regret the deleting and unfollowing, but that’s ok; having regrets is also part of growing up.
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[1] As with most persistent folk fallacies, some powerful people benefit from it. Quaker Oats make money for Pepsi.
But that’s the thing, anime wasn’t fun for me anymore. I’m not saying to give up on entertainment completely either.
edit: might add more to this later
I’m curious about what you’re moving on to. You write about maturity and your nerd peers being bad at that, unlike yourself who tries or succeeds at not liking kiddie things like anime and other fiction anymore.
What is it that scares you, a presumed Serious Adult, about indulging in something inconsequential to the point where you have to make a clean break away from it like this?
I now see lmm’s great post above. I agree with it, the adolescent part in particular. Do you now stick only to nonfiction because only that is important/mature or is some fiction ok? Is Breaking Bad something you can watch as an adult? Mirai Shounen Conan? 2001: A Space Odyssey? Can you watch a theater performance of Death of a Salesman as something other than entertainment? Swan Lake ok or something to “move on” from if you saw it 10 years ago? These questions are mostly rhetorical but I hope you get the point. Even people who stick mostly to “real” things still end up daydreaming about politics, peak oil or learning an instrument or whatever. Not only is there nothing wrong with that, it is an important part of processing the subconscious stuff that goes on in our minds.
The above might read as agressive and hostile, I apologize if so. My intent was sincere and I would greatly appreciate an effort reply.
lmao @ unfollwing anitars on twitter though
Re: your post above this one
Still not making much sense for me. Would you give up another medium like music or games if you found yourself unable to enjoy them at some point; or would you reflect on what the root caus(es) of that might be?
Well, really, the main point here is about diversifying your interests. Don’t keep doing the same things all your life just because that’s what you’re familiar and comfortable with and because your friends are doing it. While I could make the argument all about “lol@anime” (and really now, most anime is really fucking low brow as far as story telling goes) that really wasn’t my intention.
The main idea here is that if you always keep doing the same thing you’ll become one of those nerds who’s incapable of talking about anything except your special interests. You should try new things, get new impressions.
Since I had been a part of the anime community for a pretty long time, for me it was important to get a sense of closure and declare myself done with this part of my life. I will remember it, but I don’t really want to look back and feel nostalgic about it or rewatch old anime series. It really isn’t entertaining to me anymore and I see no reason to follow people who keep tweeting about things I have no interest in anymore. I have other things to talk about with those friends I’ve made during these years that are still my friends.
As far as other entertainment goes, I don’t watch TV or movies and never really have. I read books but most fantasy/sci-fi I liked in my youth has lost a great deal of its attraction. Ursula K. LeGuin is still great though. I still play video games; they are still entertaining to me. Otherwise what’s currently filling my time is a research project about Swedish armored fighting vehicle development during the cold war, which is nerdy as shit, but it’s interesting to me.
I don’t see any particular reason for actively trying to like some particular kind of entertainment, either. What I find odd about people liking anime (or superhero comics, or whatever) into their 30’s and 40’s is that they seem to pick their favored entertainment during their most volatile years and then stick with it for most of their life. That is weird to me, especially since anime is so very focused on teenagers and young adults.
tl;dr what I was really trying to say here is that I’ve changed as a person and for me it was important to sorta make a symbolic break with an earlier phase of my life. I hope that in the future I will change further and do other things, and that I will not feel nostalgic about what I’m currently doing either.
Really, fuck nostalgia. You will never be the same person you once were, you will never have the same experiences again. Remember what you were but don’t regret it or wish yourself back to it. Keep moving, keep changing, always look forwards.
I don’t think upper age brackets watch anime because of nostalgia, well, some done, but some people watch because they actually like this shit the way it is now.
Kind of hard to realize the validity of that if you’ve never really liked anime though.
Ah yeah I feel you regarding nostalgia in general. Trying to recreate magic moments is foolish.
Being able to talk about multiple topics is important as you say and if you had to break from anime to do that then sure, some things take priority.
It is good to hear that you are able to enjoy some stuff like video games and research. Games are definately lowbrow though. You don’t mean that you only replay Planscape: Torment and a few other middlebrow games endlessly, right?
Regarding this I think it’s an unfortunate misconception that it’s automatically a bad thing if a work demands little or nothing of its consumer. Some thing in life are meant not as a lesson to be learnt but as recovery between the lessons and the work we must do. Personally I often listen to music as a way of relaxing. If someone prefers watching an episode of Kiniro Mosaic or reading an issue of Spiderman I don’t think of them as childish anymore than someone who prefers watching a game of soccer or a few beers at the pub. I have a hard time imagining someone who sincerly sticks only to middlebrow-and-above stuff, it sounds like a very self-decieving way of life.
Again, yes, branching out and avoiding being a walking stereotype weeb is great.
I think the main reason to why I still stick to “watching anime” and still enjoy it, at times should be pointed out, is because I’ve come to not sort it out as a specific kind of media that I enjoy. It’s a way to enjoy myself, as many other things do as well. The thing of thinking of anime as “anime” and not just another series or movie is the thing.
I think letting go of things of the past is a part of what makes a person a person, in the same manner of letting go of people you once loved but now have trouble coping with. I don’t always feel like letting go of something should mean that it’s final either. We can always change and make new decisions.
Nostalgia will always be there for me. I long for the days of my youth (lmao 24 years old and I’m talking about a youth yeez) where things weren’t the way they are today. Mostly because I remember feeling good. With growing up, you need to take more responsibility which in most cases is a good thing but at the same time can feel overwhelming for a lot of people (me included at times). It’s nice to have somewhere or something to think back to at those times.
But hey, we’re all different when it comes to people right?
See you space cowboy… (ANIME REFERENCE OH NO)
PS. I was called TheFluff2 by a person in Japan and I was cool with it since you’re a cool person. DS.
you’re an okay dude hampe :3
Some of the most interesting people I’ve known devoted their whole lives to one particular interest. And some of the dullest people I know dabbled in a wide range of stuff. Of course the other way around is true as well. I don’t think either path is reliably better than the other; if you enjoy trying new things then sure, do it, but if you prefer doing the same things then that’s fine too.
I think you have the part about picking your favoured entertainment backwards – not knowing what you like yet is what makes those teenage years volatile. By their ’30s and ’40s people largely know what they like; some keep changing, but most settle down.
I agree it’s usually silly to actively try to like some particular kind of entertainment – but it’s equally silly to actively try to stop liking some particular kind of entertainment. And to be honest that’s how this talk of closure comes across to me – it seems like you’re forcing yourself to move on, and making a public declaration, because part of you doesn’t want to.
Do what you feel you have to, but don’t let this post be a burden in the future. If in a year, five years, thirty years, you decide that what you wanted wasn’t to quit but just to take a break – it’s ok to come back. We won’t think less of your for it.
I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m trying to force myself to not like anime. It’s been a very, very long time (we’re talking several years) since last I watched a full series or even an anime movie. One of the last ones I watched was Madoka Magica because we did a thing out of it in gg, but I didn’t really care for it and the last few episodes I’ve only ever seen streamed without subtitles.
I’ve watched a few episodes here and there since then but nothing has really caught my interest and I’m really not feeling any particular urge to try again. I recently (well, within the last six months or so) tried rewatching GitS:SAC (probably been at least seven or eight years since last time) but I only got like two or three episodes in before realizing it really wasn’t as good as I remembered it, and I stopped. As a part of writing this post I watched parts of the original GitS movie but didn’t really feel any need to watch all of it again either, and now I’ve deleted it. I guess I could download it again if I really wanted to see it, but I doubt I’ll feel like it.
I didn’t write the post because I wanted to tell myself to stop liking anime, I wrote it because I was feeling without any doubt that I was done with anime and ready to move on.
Reading the comments here it really seems like the anime fans have a hard time grasping the concept that a person can stop liking Vietnamese cartoons as time goes on. You still like anime? Good for you. Just try to understand not all “fans” are in the same boat as you.
I too can verify TheFluff’s experience. Anime stopped being exciting and rewarding to me a long time ago and it took me slightly longer to realize this. Much like what #6 said, at some point every seasonal show felt like the exact same shit story-wise and it was hard to remember any defining aspects of a series. By the off chance there comes along a show that stood from thhe crowd, its flaws and similarities to past shows are more noticeable than it’s merits for me. Perusing a tired hobby just to chase the fond memories in your past experiences is a draining experience and it’s a retarded thing to carry on doing after you realize it.
I’ll miss you fluff, I have more or less followed this sparse but wholly entertaining blog since I was an edgy teenager. I guess I can’t leave without inputting at least one shitpost here.
TheFluff:
When I was young, 12-15 maybe, I liked Warhammer a lot. At some point it ceased being relevant for me and I stopped following it or consider it a hobby. I did not think less of those who still enjoyed it, some being very old relatively. I did not write a farewell text about how done I was with it. I do not shy away from the topic if friends bring it up. I’m being blunt here but I think you need it. This reads more like crashing self esteem from listening too much to Zorak and other self-loathing nerds. You want to gain approval (from goons? from normies? from yourself?) so you cut away things you can’t take responsibility for enjoying.
I suspect this discussion isn’t the type of advice one can take in at once. I’d reccomend as lmm says to revisit the matter later. Maybe reread this in about a year see how it feels. <3
sq:
I think you're making two mistakes here. Number one is to focus too much on the newest stuff, I wouldn't like almost anything if I only had a constantly changing menu of random ingredients to chose from
The second one is the idea that a predictable narrative is automatically bad (and implicitly unpredictable=good). I'll make an example of a recent show that went fully for the "this shocks you" angle in the first episode. It was called Akame ga Kill and I stopped it when they were just about to kill a young girl for having tortured the protagonists childhood friends to death (oops spoliers). I didn't see that one coming yet it was utter garbage. Now consider a positive non-anime example which I hope is relevant here. Demon's Souls is a story about a king who awakens an anicent evil and you, the slayer who must stop him. There's only one major twist in the game and it can be predicted if you've paid attention.
Knowing the story and having a mental system of archetypes to sort characters into can be great tools to appreciete a well made narrative that much more and on multiple levels. The thrill of plot twists is a very low one that everyone can enjoy. The storytelling equivalent of explosions. You see anime (and I would hope other media) with different, older eyes now because you have grown as a person. If that makes you more selective in what you pick for entertainment then that's fine.
With any intrest, familiarity breeds contempt so breaks are important; sometimes long ones. Do you play games like League of Legends, Call of Duty or Starcraft 2? Do you watch soccer or other sports? Read crime novels? Everything blurring together like that is a natural effect of fatigue after a while.
Also please stop this trolling. Vietnamese knockoff "Manwha" and "Animu" will never match the Cambodian originals.
After reading the post and the comments I felt that maybe I should comment as we did only briefly touch the subject last dinner.
I have similar feelings, even though I still watch anime from times to times. I used to watch anime and actually liked it as a teenager, but now a days when I start a new series I basically have no expectations. All anime is crap unless proven otherwise. Stens;gate is a wonderful anime and I watched it several times (also because I love time travel stories and can give a full lecture on the subject). Stens;gate also focuses on a older crowd and has a lot of angst; the protagonist ultimately ends up with a severe PTSD. I don’t think I watch anime out of nostalgia, but more out of a bad habit and also get a dose of the Japanese language. Since I’ve been studying Japanese on and off for the past few years, anime is a way to keep it up. Learning Japanese from anime is extremely dangerous and no one should do it, but it helps with identifying word sequences, listen to pronunciation, and understand how grammar is applied (and not applied). Now that I’m moving to Japan I will probably stop watching anime since there is no need.
I started to watch anime because I was interested in Japan, Japanese culture and the Japanese language (月語). This led to some university courses in Japanese and I started practicing iaido (the art of using the Japanese samurai sword), which is geeky on a whole other level. My interest in Japan have shifted from entertainment for kids (anime) to a sport mostly practiced by old Japanese men (iaido), and now I’m moving to Tokyo to work with IT. I feel that I have to go the whole nine yards, to experience all the good and bad and sides of Japanese society (there are plenty of bad sides). Maybe I will write a similar post like TheFluff’s in a few years where I say good bye to Japan.
Regarding the topic on not liking anime anymore, I feel the same about conventions. I got to know TheFluff though organizing conventions. I’m very proud of what we built, how we built it, all the people and good experience it brought. I’m also very happy we have moved on and started doing other things with our lives. I don’t like conventions anymore, and I don’t think I would visit one ever again unless I get in for free and can be drunk. I don’t feel nostalgic about conventions and don’t like the visitors or the events.
Good for you. When something is not a positive force in your life anymore you should remove it, whether it is a hobby, a person, a place, a job or something else. For me this is a lot of what growing up is about. Gaining the wisdom to determine what should be part of my life, the confidence to remove those things that shouldn’t and to add those that should.
When we’re young and first start defining ourselves we do so in terms of which groups we are part of and which we are not; we’re “anime fans”, “geeks” or “gamers”, we are not “mainstream”, “sports fans” etc. This makes changing any of those things big and scary. Part of growing up is realizing that you are not defined in terms of others, you are not your hobbies, your job, your friends, your likes or your dislikes. Even if you were to change all of those things you’d still be you.
Growing up is also recognizing that everything is ephemeral, nothing is ever static, especially not you. Trying to hold on to something that’s been lost is impossible and nothing good can come from it.
The Fluff that we’ve known is dead, it’s good that he recognizes that, and I welcome the new Fluff and wish him the best of luck on all his future ventures.